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hello everybody and welcome to a new episode of swisspreneur. today we are going to meet dania gerhardt when i first met dania back in 2008 she had just founded 'amazee' she experienced everything else but an easy beginning but after having successfully turned their luck in 2010 the initial start-up turned to a successful web-agency that is why, today, we want to talk to dania and find out how she managed this transformation

and which mistakes should be avoided when starting off with a start-up. hi dania, it is great to be here and thank you for taking your time for us. thank you for coming, it is a pleasure to see you again after all this time. it has been a long time indeed. yes it has. we met some time ago when, if i remember correctly, we traveled to boston together yes. and we managed to always keep in touch a little.

and now that we are doing this project, i remembered how cool the company 'amazee' was and how it has become even cooler today with 'amazee labs' and i was happy to hear that you were in switzerland and that we can do an interview with you here in the office of 'amazee labs' maybe you can briefly tell us where you are located as this is not the only office, am i right? exactely, this is the first office to which we really feel we have a connection to our history is that we started out as a start-up and we were situated in the techno park just like so many others. you rent your small room try your best to get by and before that we had tried it in our own living rooms

and now this is the first office into which we have really put so much lifeblood in order to be able to say 'yes, this is our own office', 'it is our kingdom' it is ours. how long have you already been here for? we moved here around three years ago. as you are not always here. where else are you located, apart from here? no, no, we started our business in zurich and then opened an office in austin two years ago

and that was followed by another in cape town last year. austin is? austin, texas, usa. why austin? we set the objective to also have a presence on the us market and started evaluating which locations would be of interest to us we always implement certain criteria within such evaluations the first criteria is that the market must be interesting for our services the second criteria is that it should not be more expensive than zurich, which is almost impossible, but it actually is possible

meaning it should not be a too pricy location and the third criteria is that it must have a certain degree of coolness and a certain level of a creative flair we had two freelancers working in san antonio that is about two hours from austin austin was one of the evaluated cities and it ranked very high. therefore we sent these freelancers to austin and pretty much built an office around them.

and austin is not as crowded yet as new york is, for example. or san francisco for that matter. however it is hip and very cool. and what was the third location you mentioned? cape town. why cape town? cape town was a personal project of mine because gregory my husband and co-founder is in fact half south african and therefore we set ourselves the personal goal

of moving down to south africa. of course this means a certain degree of detachment from zurich and the office. however at the same time, we have the opportunity to build something over there and that is why the evaluation, yes there was an evaluation even for south africa, we checked the same criteria, is there a market yes or no? the cost side, is it a cool place? yes, without doubt. it does go a little further than what i just said but indeed, it really worked for us. so we were able to justify this move from a business perspective however the impuls was clearly of a private nature.

very nice. how often are you still in zurich? how often do you travel between these cities? i am here for the third time this year but this is unusual busy otherwise i would have to say i am here every two months. i make the journey between zurich and cape town every two months but i go to austin much less. gregory however also travels to austin. so you have divided yourselves according to preference? yes, however he also has more respnsibility within the austin team.

while i have more responsibility in zurich and in cape town. i would love to ask you a couple of questions to your early life and childhood. you have an accent from basel if i am not mistaken did you grow up in the basel region? i cannot remember the very first days however i was born in geneva then we moved to america when i was about six months old and then i lived in california for seven years. then we moved to basel when i was seven years old. and that is where i grew up and that is the accent you are hearing.

in the city? indeed i grew up in the city of basel and remained there till after my studies till i was twenty-two. well i actually stayed in basel till i was twenty-five. tell us something about your family. do you have any siblings? yes i have an older sister, she is three years older than me. she is also an entrepreneur and still lives in basel. i was the one who wanted to move away however she has family in basel and is very well established there.

what is her business as an entrepreneur? she runs a re-location business. it is a smaller services company, similar to us, and she supports expats to find a foothold in basel or in switzerland generally. probably for the large pharma companies i expect? exactely, pharma companies and so on. she tries to support them in a sort of 'vip-manner'. and that was where you studied? what did you study? i studied business at the university of basel, meaning business and economics that was used to be called 'wirtschaftswissenschaften' however all the titles and courses have been re-named in the meantime.

i did my master degree there, so the 'classic path' you may say. was it always obvious to you that you would go and study business and economics? if i would have had to guess, when i first met you dania, when you told me you studied business and that you are a financial auditor i was surprised. it was not that obvious that i would have said, as a child, 'yes i want to study business' i think as a child you want to become a pilot or a flight attendant or a doctor or vet, all these kind of jobs or an astronaut maybe.

however during my teenage years i realized that i have a wide range of interests and that i enjoy numbers and that i enjoy businesses moreover i had an equal interest in business studies and economics so on the one hand business management and finance was of interest to me while on the other hand i was also interested in finding out how our world actually functions and based on the fact that i did not have a clear 'dream job' in mind business and economics just made the most sense to me at that time i feel that i do have an interest for it, so it was not a complete 'alibi-decision' in order to simply just study something, anything

however i knew that these studies would not tie me down to one particular job in the future. what was the incentive or the reason for deciding to become a financial auditor after your studies? how did that develop? i finished my studies rather quickly. i was twenty-two when i finished. and i thought to myself 'was that really it?' i asked myself 'am i really ready for the real world out there?' i had learnt a wide range of skills, i had learnt very useful skills, however i felt that i learnt to debate, think and understand but i still considered that some particular tool, some particular skill, was still missing.

that was when i decided to become a financial auditor because i felt that this would give me that particular tool which would benefit me more than 'just having studied' moreover i do have a certain flair for figures and numbers and i wanted to complete further higher education. herefore becoming a financial auditor is certainly valuable even though i must admit that i wanted to quit during my trial period really? yes i started and after a short while i thought 'oh boy this was a mistake'

i need to go through so many documents i do not think this is the right job for me. if you could, is there anything you would change in your education? if there is a young person watching this interview now and is evaluating different options is there something you would say, you would have done it differently? or do you have a tip for young people who are planning their educational options? i would not have done anything differently i was always greatly influenced by my father who said that good education is most important and i followed that and i was always aware of that except for maybe a couple of short phases when i was fourteen or fifteen and coloured my hair green

and suddenly thought i would quit school. but i think we all have gone through these phases. but it was my father who intervened and said that is completely out of the question as soon as you are eighteen you can do what you like but now you are going to do what i say and you are going to continue going to school. and today of course i can say i am greatful. who is to say that i may have had other interesting opportunities or paths to take and i could have led a happy life. however i am content that i completed such a sound education

i believe that if you want to be very dedicated in work, or as an entrepreneur, that the tools and skills which i learnt the in-depth financial understanding and the understanding of businesses, from a financial perspective, that is of critical importance. i am not saying that you cannot achieve your goals without such education however it gives me a feeling of a certain degree of protection. i really learnt a lot and even if this should fail, even if founding a start-up would have failed,

i still had the feeling that i had something strong to depend and come back to i will find a new job with that basis. it is something i can clearly say i can do it, i have the ability, so give me a job as a financial auditor or financial consultant. and that gave me a lot of security and confidence therefore no i would not do something else, i would certainly choose a sound education again if i would need to decide today, i may choose to study informatics. because it is a sound education and an industry within which you will always find a job again? exacetly.

so the bottom line you are saying is to choose something where you are certain that you will always find a job because it gives you the freedom to make your own decisions and you do not have to be scared that you might suddenly 'end up on the street'? that security is indeed the first element yes, the security you get from having a strong education which you can always depend on. the other element is that you can position yourself in a certain way within the environment. in the environment of our agency, or in the environment of our start-up, we only had very few people who joined us who had a sound financial understanding that very often was a skill that was missing.

why? there are many entrepreneurial people, who are highly creative however they leave the educational system too early because they have the feeling they need to something themselves so they start their own thing aged twenty, of course in some cases this can be extremely successful. then there are the people with a technical background who have the ability to program and have an idea for a prototype of a product and they go on to produce it. so very often the 'missing link' is the coo or cfo function, someone who can actually run a business, who knows which elements are necessary to do so

and i consider this to be a quality which is highly important and i also realized that this was important for me personally, and my positioning within our group of people also during our time as a start-up, people would come along and say 'hey, we also need such a cfo or coo type of person' because between the visionary and entrepreneur and the technical guy, you need someone. and you know this is all learnable, you can learn all that, however many people simply are not the type for doing so or they just do not want to learn it. only very few people want to analzye the quarterly financial statements or do the controlling

however of course this is something which is important and it gives you a lot of security in our environment that you are managing the figures? and that the salaries are paid, right? indeed, you need to understand how the business is doing, you need to plan the business' liquidity, you really just need to understand how to handle the current situation. is that something, would you say, that was fun for you to do right from the beginning? or did you consciously say that this is of importance for leading a company and i want to do it? how did you make that decision? how much curiosity from your side was involved? it was not really conscious because i was a financial auditor before becoming an entrepreneur.

was that never an idea you had during your childhood to one day run your own business? no in that case it would be interesting to know how that idea came about? how did you develop the idea of founding your own business? this developed over time. i have been in a relationship with gregory for a long time already and he is my husband and co-founder. how long, if i may ask you something as personal as that? i was nineteen years old when we first met. that was during my first year of studies and shortly after meeting we became a couple.

so the idea of founding a company was also his desire? indeed he was the visionary. he had the vision of creating a platform that has liquidity and brings people together. however you would not say that gregory wanted to found a business. it was the vision, the idea of the platform that prevailed and based on that vision, your business 'amazee' was founded? yes that is the case. however already when gregory was nineteen, he had his first business importing handicraft goods from zimbabwe into switzerland as he saw an opportunity with that idea. he has always been the entrepreneurial type

so he had that idea and developed it and consequently the business became the product of the initial idea therefore it was not the case that he would have said 'i want to start my own business, now i need an idea' it was quite the opposite however he definitely had more of the 'entrepreneurial blood' in his veins than i did at that time as i could have very well also imagined myself on a 'classic career path' as i had qualified as a financial auditor i moved into international accounting i was doing well in the company that i was working for at the time however then the time came when i needed to ask myself 'is this it?'

when was that? i must have been twenty-seven at that time. yes, ok. and that was when the question arised if i continue on that particular path and try my very best in doing so in the corporate world or is there more to do, or other paths to follow? consequently i needed to ask myself 'how do i want to shape my life?' i had the strong belief that the idea of gregory could work and it enthralled me

however besides that, the more important question for me really was 'what do i want in life?' and that was the more influential or critical trigger to me which led to my decision to leave the corporate world what happened in that moment when you decided to do something different? is there something like a moment of truth, which you remember, during which you said 'now i am going to do something else?' i remember a vacation in february 2007 the idea of founding a business started developing during the december before so three months before the vacation

gregory was working on his slides and further developing the idea at that time, we did not know what the end-product was going to look like and that was when he said 'look i believe in this idea and i would like to invest in it' investing meaning the investment of personal time and money if necessary the issue for me at that time was that gregory said he would like to have me as a co-founder because we both knew that we work in complementary ways meaning that we may think in complementary ways however at the end of the day we work in the same direction and as a team, we cover various different skills

at first, i could not have agreed spontaneously because i am a very careful person as you see when i talk about my education it was important to me to have that sound education and background i was independent rather early and i always wanted to take responsibility for my life and make my own decisions and stand by them so we went on holiday to cape verde for one week and that was not the 'moment of truth' for me in the sense that it was one particular moment it was in fact that one week. we talked about the idea of starting business a lot during that week

and i was really grappling with myself one moment i would think 'yes, i will quit my job and let us go for it' then again i would think 'no i cannot do this, the idea is not thought through enough yet' however at the end of the vacation, the decision had been made. did you ever consider the option that he could have tried it himself and you would have covered his back with your job? yes we discussed that option too. was he the one who said 'come on please do this with me' or did you, very proactively, take that final step yourself and agreed to co-found the business? we often go through a similar process

gregory is the one who comes up with the idea, he is the motivator, at the beginning, and i am the one who contemplates a lot and then i decide. and that decision is made without pressure or persuasion from his side. the decision is like a battle i need to go through for myself. so he gives you the option and lets you decide? yes exactely. he gives me the option and i start reflecting. however what is interesting is that as soon as i have made my decision,

then i am full on. very often it is me who then starts pushing the project. because i feel that if i decide to do it, then we do it the real way. and in this case it was the same story. i led this inner battle with myself, reflecting on all the arguments for or against the project, and i evaluated all the potential risks. i needed to understand what happens if it all goes wrong, if we are not successful. i thought of our budget, which amount have we saved, which amount can we invest, i also needed to consider what happens if we have to close the business. what will happen to us?

you see we were living the 'yuppie-life' gregory was working in a private bank and i was a manager in a financial auditor's company we had a nice apartment at the rennweg, we went for after-work drinks in expensive bars, that was the life we were living. not 'posh' but simply the way that two young professionals from well-paid industries, living together, without children, can afford to do so. we both were well aware of the fact that we would need to change this. if we both quit our jobs and we both start working on this project, a lot of things were going to change.

and my thoughts really were, 'how far could we possibly fall, if all goes wrong?' how did you handle that fear? or how did you overcome that fear? i overcame that fear by realizing that i will never end up on the street. in a worst case, we invest all of our money, lose our apartment because we cannot pay the rent anymore, we will still have our family and friends. in a worst case scenario, my sister offered that i could go and live in her guest room for a month until you find a new job and can afford an apartment.

did you consult your sister when taking this decision? no, however i knew that i had that support and i knew that gregory also had that support, from friends and family. therefore the worst thing that could have happened to us was that we lose all our money, that we need give up the business, and that we would need to start from 'square one' again. and that helped me to overcome that fear, by knowing that in the worst case i would have to look for a new job, and that after one or two months i would probably have found a new job.

and i will certainly not end up living beneath a bridge somewhere. this very much reflects your rational approach to such a project. how did gregory handle this situation? i would also like to know whether you ever discussed the 'fear' of letting an idea die, meaning that people would ask you why your business failed despite having such a great initial idea. i think this is often the case in switzerland, you feel that some people prefer to keep an idea in their head, instead of taking the risk of potentially failing and having people telling them 'i told you', were you ever confronted with such fear? no, i think we were both very convinced that we had a case that could very well be successful,

we entered the project with a lot of enthusiasm, and the risk evaluation was purely to consider, what the worst thing was that could happen. so any negative comments really were not considered important. i must also say that we were not established in that environment yet, so we did not have many friends from other start-up businesses so we did not have that fear that we could potentially embarass ourselves in front of them. we have 'classic' banking and consulting backgrounds, and we started something completely new. we were completely unbiased.

maybe even naive would you say? yes we were naive. how did the majority of your friends and family react to your idea? there almost certainly must have been some negative reactions beside the positive ones? when you both said you were going to quit your jobs, people must have asked why the both of you? of course there were such reactions. who reacted that way? can you remember a particular case? in my professional environment there were several people who could not understand my decision.

they could not understand how i could leave or quit the path i had successfully started in order to found an internet start-up. of course many of these people do not understand much of this business, they just see someone quitting a good job in order to join something that does not yet exist. can you tell us what exactely you told your friends from your professional network, when you were leaving? when they asked you what you were going to do next, what was your answer? how did you explain your idea or vision? at the beginning it was indeed a vision, a vision to create a platform,

through which people can join forces for specific objectives. it is a platform through which you can network and collaborate on certain projects. moreover there will be tools for this collaboration, there will be fundraising tools, in order to enable the successful development and completion of the specific project. today there are numerous tools for collaboration, such as 'basecamp', there are numerous tools for publications or fundraising, such as 'kickstarter', however at that time, facebook had only just introduced groups. that was the beginning of people meeting online in order to pursuit common objectives. so we wanted to create something that was the opposite to the individual being the center of attention.

and putting the main focus on the objectives, and allowing people to work on these objectives together, virtually, online. that was the vision and at that time, when we quit our jobs, it effectively was not more than a vision. so how did you proceed? first of all, as you told us earlier, you did all the calculations and evaluated how long you could finance yourselves. what were the next steps that followed? earlier i may have said that the both of us together cover a lot of skills, however we were also missing one highly important skill, namely we are no technicians.

this means we were missing the ability to create such a platform and we needed a prototype, in order to advance. right at the beginning, we had a third co-founder, who however never got involved in operations, that was prodosh. despite his business background, he had worked at the bank with gregory, he had some technical ability too. he supported us in the decision-making process on which tool we could use to create the platform. we then decided on 'drupal' which is an open source framework, which has of course also turned more and more important in our lives today.

and then we started creating this platform using drupal and an outsourced partner. we found a team in romania and this helped us create this platform. we specified and conceptualized it and they were the ones who then built the platform. how did your collaboration with a romanian team work? did you collaborate smoothly right from the beginning? or was it a challenge? very often at such an early stage of the idea, start-up's struggle when they involve a partner and especially a partner who is so far away and potentially of course there are also language barriers with this partner. we were lucky, we found a strong team.

we got in touch with the managing director of 'e-point', that was the name of the company, and it probably still is the name today, and he understood us and he was prepared to work with us. they had some good people on board and they gave us some valuable input. i am not saying that it was always easy, however where would it be easy to develop such a product with a partner, however with that team we were really lucky. one of the it-developers who works for us today was one of the first people to work on our product 'amazee' all that time ago. really? and he works here now?

yes he lives and works here now. it was challenging however we had some very good experiences with them, i think we were lucky. i mean we evaluated them and made sure that they fully understand what we want, but at the end of the day, you also need that bit of luck for sure. so when you launched the product, how did you manage to attract the first customers? how did you handle the challenge of 'product-market-fit'? did this fit right from the start or did you have to adapt or adjust? how did you react when you realized that the fit was not a given?

can you take us along that path what happened in your business? we started with a lot of enthusiasm and with a lot of dedication. we had a clear idea which features would be necessary but we did not really know which features we don't need. and i think that is a mistake that many others make at the beginning, is that you want to do too much. we built a monster, in that we wanted the product to be able to cover everything. collaboration tools such as 'basecamp', publication tools such as 'facebook' or 'kickstarter', then also fundraising to non-profit fundraising tools,

it was too much. and it therefore was difficult to communicate our message. at the beginning we heavily invested in marketing. it was important to us to communicate our brand so that people get to know 'amazee' and that they want to use it. so during the first year we went to silicon valley and we went to talk to bloggers, we wanted to introduce them to 'amazee' and tell them what it does, so that when we finally launch, people would want to visit and use the platform. and it was only after our launch, that we realized that there was a sort of 'mis-match'.

i mean maybe it was not even a 'mis-match', it was just that at that time so many things were happening, many platforms were being launched at that time and many of them were covering one particular area of ours. so we realized that the world had not been waiting for us. indeed we had been a little naive. we did not have any background in that industry, and we had the feeling that we knew exactely what our product must have to offer, however we did not 'hit the wall' too hard because this development happened gradually. at the beginning we had a lot of success communicating our brand. we had a lot of people early on who were prepared to report and talk about us in a positive way,

and i think that our product and our brand received a lot of sympathy at the beginning, i can confirm that impression. it had a touch of non-profit and a bit of 'do good' even if it had a business model and even if we wanted to be profitable we did not want to create a product for millions and it was our objective to be stinking rich in a couple of years, that was not the case. we wanted to form a sustainable business, and the product received sympathies for having the objectives of helping people as well as bringing them together, and for its social nature,

and that certainly helped us a lot at the beginning, it gave us a lot of energy. what did you initial business model look like at the beginning? how did you plan to earn money? it was a 'freemium-model' with a free online platform and we wanted people to buy the additional functions. besides that of course there was going to be some advertising however this 'freemium-model' was at the core. and that did not work as well as you were expecting? first of all we launched the platform without additional functions, then we added them, and that was when we realized that the conversion rate was much lower than expected.

we had expected that much more people would be ready to buy these additional function, this could have been through file-sharing or many others, and that was our first sort of reality check. on the one hand the increase in user numbers should have been a lot higher, and on the other hand, the conversion rate should have been better, resulting in more paying customers. and that was a difficult time for us, because we had thought that people had been waiting for such a product. and that they would be happy when such a tool is launched. of course there were people who were excited when we launched, we had several very dedicated users,

however by far not enough of them. do you think you could have done something differently? we could have done a lot differently. so what would you have done differently? you talked about firstly, not enough users and secondly, of a bad conversion rate meaning users buying premium features. concerning these two issues, what could you have done differently? we should have kept our focus. right from the beginning we should have focussed on less features and on a smaller geogrpahical area.

we thought 'yes this is the internet' and therefore we can launch this platform everywhere as everyone can access it but it is a fact that you need to build your community in order to become interesting. and therefore you need to focus on a specific geographic area. with a specific focus, we could have done better. however this is with hindsight, so it seems obvious, but at that time, it was not obvious to us. 'amazee' has offices in austin, in cape town and in zurich, so with hindsight

and refering to the geographic focus which you mentioned, would you start off in zurich again or do you think that 'amazee' is a business that could have well developed from a different location? we lived in zurich and therefore it could not have been started anywhere else. i could not have imagined moving to shanghai and starting something over there. because there are simply more people over there. and we would not have known how to have gotten a foothold over there. that is why it was the correct decision to start our business here and i would do it the same way again. we should have focussed on one specific target market during our launch.

we had the feeling that we can launch in europe, and i mean europe, the german-speaking areas germany is a huge country so we started a competition which allowed people to initiate projects and within this competition we visited numerous german cities and distributed flyers with the objective of creating these clusters but that did not happen. it takes so much dedication and work in order to find a foothold in one single market. so the fire really needs to burn in one area or market before the spark can ignite a new fire somewhere else? and you had some sparks all over the place but there was no fire, so to speak? yes exactely, that was the way it was.

how was that moment when you realized that your approach was not working? we had a similar experience with 'atizo', we have a business that works however our actual objective does not work how did you experience that process of re-arranging or re-aligning yourselves? you already had employees at that time, i do not know how many, was it seven? at that time we were eight people. ok eight people. how did you experience that process?

that process hurts. it hurts because the first phase is the realization that it may not work. you are living with so much enthusiasm and you feel as if the world is yours you can achieve everything and suddenly you realize that this might actually not work. maybe our vision is not the vision which the world has been waiting for. and we might not be successful with this product. that is the first painful insight to realize that the world does not share your own vision. it is like asking 'why do they not want this? this thing we are doing is great, why do they not want it?'

then of course you start thinking about the potential consequences. if the world does not share this vision, then we either change or adapt our business even though we do not really want to do that because we still believe in it and we needed to re-structure our company because we had eight people with a salaryso we realized that probably a drastic cut of the salaries is needed or potentially even sackings may be required. how do we implement this? because otherwise sometime in the year 2009 we would have run out of money.

and 2009 was indeed that year of this painful transformation. 2008 was the year of enthusiasm and the year you believed that anything is possible and 2009 was the year during which you needed to realize that it will not turn out the way that you were imagining that it would at first this was very painful and you started thinking of potential options other than continuing and towards the end of the year hope started returning because we had started to re-think things. re-thinking, can you tell us what exactely that meant? first of all we needed to think about how we can actually continue to finance ourselves

we needed to evaluate different financing options we needed to evaluate all the 'classic options' of financing that a start-up can potentially make use of. and after that we started considering other options beyond the financing too, such as what other methods do we have which enable us to earn money. we were very lucky in the sense that our product was good. what do you mean by product? you mean the platform right? indeed, the platform had something to offer. we had a good platform and people recognized that they could potentially make use of this platform. and despite not managing to attract a critical mass of users to our platform,

we still received inquiries from big companies stating interest in using our product. they did not have the intention to publish their project on 'amazee.com', however they wanted us to duplicate or white-label their project so that they could use it for their own purposes. at the beginning, my reaction was 'no, this is a distraction, it is not our business model', 'we want to do our own thing and we want the people to join our platform'. and while our business was reasonably functioning, we stuck to that attitude, however as the money started to run out, we thought if there are people who are prepared to pay for this other service, and we can offer it to them,

why not let us to this. and that was when we started shifting towards this new service. who was the first customer to whom you offered this particular 'new service'? can you tell us, can you remember? the first customer was kpmg. and what is very interesting about that is that the first contact i had to kpmg was when i was in boston with you. that was when they got in touch with you and asked whether you could possibly offer that service? so that was in june 2009?

exactely. and that was the first time when we considered actually offering this new service. also interesting is that the inquiry was made by mr. urs bucher, who today is our managing director in the office in zurich. the world is a village right? therefore that link did not come about because i was used to work for kpmg, they did not even know that, instead that link was initiated by urs who led the online team at kpmg and heard of us and he knew that we had this particular project and that we could potentially offer the service at a cheaper price than if his team would have to do it all by itself.

so one could say that this was the start of the other business model. the beginning of 'amazee labs' if you so wish. how did you decide to invest more time into this other business model? meaning that kpmg is not just an exception, you could have said now that you have won some breathing space through the deal with kpmg, you could re-focus on the old business model. for how long did you pursue the two models parallel and how long did it take for customers two, three and so on to knock on the door? we did three such 'white-label' during that year

and they were for three relatively prominent brands or people. and we enjoyed doing it. we felt confident in doing it. we successfully managed to understand their needs and adapt our product accordingly. moreover we also noticed that the team was also enjoying doing this customized work, and that it was fun to actually earn money. we really enjoyed seeing that we can offer something and a customer is prepared to happily take us up on that offer. which was something that had been missing? exactely.

at first we could not understand why nobody wanted our product, and suddenly our offering was of interest. that was when we experienced that shift. we realized that we perform better if we take something from a customer, understand his needs and requirements, and then adapt or adjust it accordingly, than if we just offer this one platform. so it really turned to a very conscious shift, shifting our focus. and suddenly we were so busy with all the projects, we noticed more and more inquiries,

we noticed this business works, and the consequence of that was that the investment of time and attention into 'amazee.com' decreased and decreased. so it was a 'natural process'? yes it was. so when did you finally decide that you would discontinue 'amazee.com' for good? and what were your thoughts and considerations towards that move? i think, if i remember correctly, we saw each other again in late 2011,

and 'atizo.com' still exists in that sense, because we were never as 'radical' as you were, i think i was also lacking that courage so when did you decide to just focus on 'amazee labs' and forget about the old business model? well in 2009 we did the two 'white-labels' and in 2010 we slowly began to not only do 'white-labels' of one of our products, however we tried to really implement customized work and customized products. so at the beginning of 2010 the moment came when we realized that our belief in 'amazee.com' becoming a success,

had disappeared. if the platform would continue to grow with the rate which it had done before, it would have merely cost us money. furthermore we came to the conclusion that the platform had reached the point at which we would have needed to re-launch it. so the costs would have been to high and you needed to make the next step? and you decided that you were not prepared to take that step? the 'big bang' then arrived in september 2010, when we launched a re-brand

and 'amazee.com' became 'amazee labs' and we presented ourselves as a web agency, as a service provider, a service provider creating customized solutions for our customers based on 'dupal' and then we let 'amazee.com' still continue to run for a little while until the end of 2011, when we completely turned off the lights on it. how did you manage or handle the different groups around you? you may have had employees who had worked on that platform right from the start and they may have been attached to it, different employees may have been more attached to it than others,

you had users who may have been attached to it, how did you handle all these 'stakeholders' and their individual needs? we talked to them. we talked to all of them. first of all we needed to realize how strongly attached people are to the platform. within the team we very quickly noticed that everyone was enjoying our new product. nobody said 'i am going to quit if we shut down 'amazee.com'. you did not lose anyone? no we lost people within the financing process, we lost people because, at one point, we had to cut the salaries so drastically.

that is how we lost our cto. however we did not lose anyone based on the change of strategy. we lost people within the process of cutting salaries, and within the process of having to restrict ourselves to an absolute minimum, however we did not lose anyone through the shift to 'amazee labs'. so we had already got the team on our side. the customers or the users of the platform, that was the hardest part. we distributed a well-thought and thoroughly reviewed mail, within which we informed them about our decision to turn off the platform

and the associated reasons therefore, and that we are available to contact for support, and we communicated the best alternative platforms to use. so we tried to get their understanding through open and transparent communication, and moreover we tried to not displease the customers in the hope that they would continue to use us. and that worked. there were enough alternatives on offer. were you surprised by the high level of acceptance for the situation? were you afraid of this moment when you had to communicate this message, that you were going to shut down the website?

we were nervous yes. we were nervous when communicating the message because we did not know which reaction we were going to trigger. what was of importance to us, was that the reason for the shut down was not the failure of 'amazee' as a company, and we needed to ensure that our message is not understood the wrong way, meaning that people would think that 'amazee' was shutting down for good. because that was the moment when things only really started to kick off,

however it kicked off in a different area. moreover, at the same time, we needed to ensure that our potential customers for 'amazee labs' also would not understand the message the wrong way, meaning that we are closing the business. therefore indeed, we were nervous when we communicated that message because we really needed to weigh up what we were going to communicate and in what way. i would not go as far and say that we were anxious because of the communication, because we had experienced enough in order to be able to say, we can make it, it is possible, however we really need to consider what we are going to communicate,

and we need to be open and honest. we really profited from being open and clearly outlining the reasons for our decision. when you look back at that transformation, is there anything you would do differently? or would you say the transformation took place at the right time? earlier you said that something that influenced or even shaped you was for which period of time you did certain things in life do you feel that you gave 'amazee' enough time or would you be even more radical today

and take the decision even earlier? we realized rather early on that our vision may not be achieved or fulfilled. and it took a long time before we shut it down. the first time that we realized that it probably will not take off like a rocket was already at the end of 2008. what happened at that time? was it the number of users which indicated that it probably will not take off? yes it was the number of users. the number of users would have had to have been a lot higher.

so you had planned or forecasted figures and then you realized that you were not going to achieve them? we constantly found ourselves below the forecasted and expected figures. consequently of course, you start thinking of how high your conversion rate needs to be and how high your number of users must be and so we noticed that if we continue as we were doing, then we were not going to fulfill our vision. we started thinking of re-launching and adding new or different features, so we still had the belief that we could turn things around,

but then slowly we started losing that belief. we even considered managing it on a part-time basis with the hope that it would suddenly turn good. however with hindsight, i would not do anything differently than how we did. personally, i needed that time in order to be able to 'let go' and be completely certain that, without doubt, that our vision, in the form that it was, will not work and be a success. had i 'let go' earlier,

then i may have suddenly had the feeling that we 'let go' too early, and moreover, i would not have met all the new contacts who today, have a significant influence on us. in my later, entrepreneurial career, i would not give a product so much time anymore, however at that time, and because it was our web start-up and our first product, it was the right thing to do in my opinion. i also always had a different attitude than the principle or mentality of 'fail fast',

as that was really on the rise at that time, that you build a prototype, you test it, and you launch it fast. had we done it that way, and consequently failed fast, we needed to experience that painful process, one could even say a bit like giving birth, in the sense that we needed that pregnancy in order to be able to give birth to our baby. and throughout that period of time we met a lot of new people and we were able to collect of a lot technical experience especially with 'drupal' and therefore we were able to launch 'amazee labs' with a really strong background.

and i do not think that it would have been possible had we failed fast with 'amazee.com'. i get the impression that it was never your primary aim to be a web start-up much more i feel as though you wanted to turn that great idea of gregory into reality, and of course you went on board in order to support that mission. and then when you realized that the initial idea will not succeed it was also fine for the both of you that the initial idea can be a services company. is my impression correct do you think? to be honest, if you have that impression from the outside, then i am glad.

because that would mean that we probably did a good job with our communication however in the inside, there was a long process and there were many doubts. to give up our vision, that certainly was not easy. great if you have that impression however that shift did take a long time and just like with so many other things that i do when i have used that long period to reflect and decide, then i will go for it with full commitment and conviction.

and that was in no way different with 'amazee labs'. when we decided to become a web agency, we had reflected and we knew all the reasons for doing so, and we were fully convinced that it is the right decision. however until then, as i said, it did take its time and indeed, we were disappointed that we could not succeed with our initial web start-up however with hindsight i am glad things turned out the way they did. because i think we are better at the things we do today. can you tell me something about how it is to found a company with you spouse?

how did you handle the difficult phases together? how did you treat each other? how did you solve conflicts? how did you manage to separate the business life and the private life? there are many people out there who are thinking about exactely these issues. there are people out there who are certain that they would never start a business with their spouse. how did you handle this? well, we knew rather early on that we do want to do something together and that we have quite complementary skills to each other

we went through many 'highs' and 'lows' with this business however we were never down at the same time. as soon as one of us had doubts, or as soon as one of us was getting carried away due to a difficult phase, usually the other one of us would stay positive so, as a couple, we quite successfully managed to help each other out of the 'lows' because you are always going to experience these 'lows' and that really helped us. this ability to help each other in such situations stems from the private life, i mean during your marriage you notice if you are able to help each other through the 'highs' and 'lows'

or if you are not capable of doing so. would you say that because of your private relationship with gregory you knew that you had a good chance of making the business relationship function too? i am absolutely certain that every couple knows that. every couple knows how it handles its conflicts. every couple knows how it reacts to criticism. if i criticize my partner, or if i make a suggestion, i know if he will react by saying 'leave me alone, i know what i am doing' or if he says 'indeed you have a good point there'.

every couple knows how compatible they are in order to be able to overcome stressful situations and to work together in a professional environment. so you would say that the better you handle stress together in your private life, the more likely it is that you can function together in business? because of course i do not think you can expose yourself to much more stress than when you found a start-up. yes you need to be resistent to stress, together. moreover you need to be able to live through the 'lows' and help each other out of them. this was really important.

and the other who could afford some escapades, that is why it was so important to be able to overcome the 'lows'. we were both in the same boat, together, and we needed to make decisions that would have both a private as well as a professional effect. and we knew that we could do this. personally i was strongly convinced that we could do it. and after all these years that feeling and convicition has only intensified. tell us about how 'amazee labs' then developed.

how quickly did it develop? and why did you develop so successfully? i think the entire team really felt 'at home' with 'amazee labs' we were technically very strong with 'drupal' we had a fantastic team which could really identify itself with the company and we sent that signal to the outside world. we were having fun, we were enjoying our work and therefore customers also enjoyed working with us. we really tried to offer a great service. we really tried to listen to customers

and consequently build something for them that would give them a true benefit. through our own product development we gained a lot of experience and were therefore able to competently consult our customers, and tell them what can work and what cannot work. furthermore, the failure of 'amazee.com' helped us to fine-tune what we can offer our customers. i feel that during our time with 'amazee.com' our marketing and communications activities were good because we were well-known. so we raised people's awareness and therefore were able to acquire new customers.

there were many different factors that played together but in a nutshell, i would have to say, that with 'amazee labs' we really felt at home. we had found something that fits to us as a team, that fits to our capabilities and strengths it felt as though we had arrived where we were supposed to be. and that set free a lot of energy? yes it set free a lot of energy and the wave of success that we were on just seemed to be self-functioning. one satisfied customer led to the next and we were growing naturally.

we were initially a small team but we were growing with our customers. how did you re-structure, from 'amazee.com' to 'amazee labs' in the context that you had money for the first, it failed, and then you decided to open a web agency? we did not really need to re-structure so much. we had one single angel-investor throughout that phase and as soon as we had re-structured and become 'amazee labs' we bought him out. therefore at the end, it was only us left. how much did it cost you to buy him out?

or did you pay him the exact same amount as he had initially given you? we paid him the exact same amount. so one to one the same investment that he had made? yes, with a small interest. that was a question of pride to us. that person had had so much belief in us and therefore we only considered it fair and a question of pride, to pay him back because we now were having success, but it was that person who had enabled us to do so. we could have let that company go bankrupt

and started a new one. many people asked us why we did not do that. but personally i would have never done that. i could not have slept well anymore had we done that, it would have simply been wrong. and it did not hurt us to pay back that money, it was the right thing to do. we were doing profitable business and pay it back. that made it a lot easier of course. we were completely reduced to the two of us, so gregory and myself,

then michi joined as well, who had already been involved earlier, with 'amazee.com', and therefore we were able to decide what to do. so we pretty much just changed name from 'amazee.com ag' to 'amazee labs ag' and it was around that, that we started to re-build our company. therefore it was a good thing that you did not start a new round of financing during the summer of 2009. that would have made things more complicated. yes that was very lucky. that you made the right decision at that time. with hindsight, indeed it was very lucky.

however maybe such a new round of financing may have led us to success with 'amazee.com' that would also have been possible, but most probably not. probably that was the moment in which you made a very wise decision in that case. i am very interested to ask you about the swiss eco-system and entrepreneurial environment. you know this area very well, you are a co-founder and host of 'tedxzã¼rich' you have 'web monday' you have experienced and done so many things how do you think has the entrepreneurial landscape developed in switzerland? and do you have any ideas or suggestions on what could be done better?

i think an incredible amount of stuff has happened during the last nine years that was when we started with 'amazee'. i remember how inspired i returned from my visit to silicon valley there were three network events daily where you could go and meet people. and that for me was like 'wow'. at that time we had our office in the technopark and i did not even know our neighbours. that was when i realized that we had to do something and that is why i launched the 'web monday' as a starting-point for web and tech businesses to network and exchange

so that we learn to understand what is happening on the market and therefore maybe also help each other develop. that networking was the initial idea for the 'web monday'. moreover, networking really was something that i always considered highly important as my career continued as well as organizing events where entrepreneurial people can get together especially with a focus on web and tech, or start-ups as a theme for such an event. so i think a lot has happened here. today there is a lot more. previously it was a real challenge to meet other business founders who were doing business in a similar area

you almost needed to open every door and look behind every bush in order to find someone who was doing something similar to you. some institutions, such as the technopark or the 'ifj', did organize such events, however their main focus was to get people into entrepreneurship. so for example, they offered courses that would teach people how to start their own business so they did work on that area indeed. however what i was missing was the simple events where entrepreneurs can meet and drink a beer together and get to know each other. get to understand each others businesses. do you think we need more of these events?

or do you feel that we have reached the point i think there are enough, because i see how many there are and what is going on, i cannot even take part at a fraction of all the events, even though i would really love to, there are so many interesting events taking place and each one seems to be targeting its specific niche. therefore some of the events focus on innovation, some of the events promote women in tech, which is a great idea, so many events really focus on their niche in order to be able to fulfill the needs of the interested people. this also enables you to use your time wisely and make the decision with whom you want to meet up

and exchange or network, at a specific event. is there something, do you feel, that should still be changed? maybe considering the government or investors, do you think there is something that should be changed here in switzerland? that is a very interesting aspect because you know the states, you know austin, you know cape town and you know zurich. if you make a comparison between these locations, how well is switzerland performing? also with regard to the new initiative 'digital zurich 2025', or is there a direction in which zurich should try to develop itself?

or switzerland, as a whole? i think a lot is influenced by the culture and the mentality, which many swiss people have. probably a couple of others have already told you this too, and this is also fairly obvious, but in switzerland, youths are not told that running your own business is something particularly desirable. we have a very low unemployment rate we have countless strong industrial or professional services companies that pay good salaries to graduates therefore it becomes less interesting to start your own business.

the united states are completely different. over there you need to rely on yourself a lot more. and consequently the entrepreunerial spirit is much more abundant in every single person. i think that is something that you can change, you can change that by creating more role models i believe that creating role models and organizing these events, who communicate that it is a good idea to found a start-up is a way of achieving this change. these are the areas which need to be worked on.

because the regulatory framework here is good, it only needs a little fine-tuning. but at the end of the day, there must be people out there who really want to do it. it would be interesting to know how many are put off because of the regulatory requirements and framework. i do not consider the framework and requirements something that should put you off. because if someone decides to found a start-up in zurich then that person can go to the canton of zug, it is no issue. if someone really wants to do it, that someone will do it. that is why i think within the framework it is all about fine-tuning of course i am completely in favour of this fine-tune, for example concerning the tax situation in zurich,

because that is communicating such a bad signal, that is not what we want, and that signal also underlines that we have not understood i mean it cannot be reality that i need to take a loan in order to be able to pay my taxes. that is impossible. on the other hand though you are saying that this framework cannot be the reason for not going ahead and starting a business. you need the will power to really want to do it. studies from the university of saint gallen show that in countries in which the opportunity costs of starting one's own business

are not that high, there is much more entrepreneurial activity. of course. however it is probably the wrong approach to try to reduce these opportunity costs here however there should be some sort of sensitization as it was for you. and i feel that entrepreneurs, even after having founded their own businesses, they can always still turn around and go back moreover the experience that they collected by doing this is then also regarded as being very positive.

similar to having studied, it is regarded as 'having tried something new' and 'having gained experience'. therefore we, as a society, should try to reach that point it is an absolutely feasible and legitimate path to choose. i completely agree that it is not anchored in our culture. many entrepreuners have a sound background and did a lot of technical work and suddenly the realized that they can use this differently. that is the moment when they need to have that entrepreneurial spirit. of course these are usually very well qualified people

who can afford to come out and take that risk of starting their own business, often they have also managed to save some money in advance or they receive some sort of 'kick off support' from an university. nevertheless it remains a fact that the opportunity costs here are very high. to let go of a 'traditional job', especially because it is rather easy to get into such a 'traditional job' can be difficult. i mean i live in south africa now, we have an unemployment rate of around forty percent there every single person, unavoidably, becomes an entrepreneur because every single person somehow needs to find money to live.

some person might go and stand at a street crossing and will try to sell plastic animals which he has made at home. because he believes that might earn him some money. he too, is an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur because of financial hardship. he is forced to do something, anything. and in switzerland, i barely know anyone, who became an entrepreneur i am also not saying that these people are the best entrepreneurs, these are the one's who successfully manage to finance their lives through their work however this example goes to show how willing people are to consider doing or starting a business of their own.

the more people try to start their own business, the more likely it is that some of them will succeed. here we just have a very stable job and labor market situation which makes starting your own business unattractive to many people. that is the first thing. and the second thing is that there are not yet enough people who come out and talk about the way they succeeded in starting their own business and there are so many different ways how one can make it. there is not just one right way in order to achieve the objective

and very often there is not even a clear objective available, when you start your own business. that is evident with your company, the path you went became the objective? yes indeed. for me personally, being able to be your own boss and make your own decisions in life is one of the most important things in my life. i would consider myself as 'unemployable'. because i enjoy making my own decisions, i enjoy being creative, i enjoy developing things, i enjoy coaching, all these different things i so enjoy doing, and all these activities i now mentioned,

are all highly attractive activities to be able to do. however maybe this is not visible enough to most people. so at the end of the day one could say that it does not matter if 'amazee.com' was successful or not because you were successful with what you did and you found your objective and your destiny. indeed, maybe we will fail with another three products or businesses and open another ten which become successful. or it might all turn out completely different to that. but you see it does not really matter. because with every step forward that you take,

you gain confidence and we now have five businesses in our services portfolio and the establishment of every new one becomes easier and easier. last year we established our office in cape town and now already we are seven people working there and we are profitable. and you see, we have not even been there for one year yet. and i would say that you probably could not achieve that if you do it for the first time, or it probably would be a lot more challenging in trying to do so. today one could say it has even become a little repetitive for us

as we have found a model that works and we apply it to the different and also new locations. now we have spent a lot of time talking about 'amazee' however i would also like to use this opportunity to talk about you personally as you must have experienced a major personal development throughout that time? are there any specific attributes or habits that you have developed which you would say help you master your daily life? i would not say that they help me master my daily life, however they certainly help me master the pressures of business life.

i remember right at the beginning of our business, a server downtime of five minutes was a tragedy. meaning that i would already start considering the negative effects on our business. every single hurdle caused me major stress. so i think that i have learnt a lot in analyzing things, reflecting if specific issues really are a tragedy for our business or not. with that i mean that i have learnt to have some distance, especially when a business is growing and developing if every little issue results in emotions, and also negative emotions,

then the burden becomes to big to carry. you cannot lie sleepless in bed every night and think 'what am i going to do tomorrow'. the challenges we experienced helped me to have the ability to handle difficult situations, it helped me learn to handle stress in a better way. how did you do that? did you reflect a lot? or did you meditate? or did you talk about things with gregory? how did you experience the process from panicking every time something particularly challenging came up up to having that coolness to handle situations?

i did reflect a lot. i am not the type to do yoga for several hours. i need to reflect a lot and ask myself 'why am i behaving in this or that way?' and 'how can i adjust my behaviour?' 'can i use specific tools or instruments to support me in certain situations?' i call it 'self therapy', analyzing myself, and consequently trying to improve my behaviour as well as trying to improve myself as a person. were you coached during that time or did you have some kind of mentoring? were there any role models that helped you along that path? i did not have a coach in the traditional sense,

i also did not have a mentor in the traditional sense, i just tried to handle my emotions quite openly, therefore i may well share my emotions with a friend, or with my sister, or with gregory, and it is interesting for me to see what the other person thinks. it is interesting to see whether they share the same impression as i do but i did not have a coach nor a mentor. i did not have that classic one person who looked after me. of course i had countless conversations with gregory. so you coached each other?

yes of course. because we shared so many things or better, we share so many things, that we really support each other very strongly, and we do that in every of life's situations. you are mother of two boys. how did you decide, after already having a baby in 'amazee.com', that you would have another baby, which was borne sometime during that time, right? exactely. well ben, my son, he was born in june 2010. i became pregnant at a time when things already started to look bright for us at a time when we already had our first 'white label solutions' so we saw the light at the end of the tunnel

and we were strongly considering that shift in the business. however of course that shift had not yet been executed by a long way. but the question really had to be 'when is it indeed the right moment to plan on having a baby'? at that time i already felt pretty certain that i was going to spend the rest of my life as an entrepreneur. and that therefore also during the next ten years, there will be many 'ups' and 'downs' ahead of me. moreover it was the year in which i turned thirty. and that sort of guided me, because i realized that i also, i am evanescent. i mean thirty is no age at all, the average age of a mother is thirty one.

however for me personally, becoming thirty, was of significant relevance. i started thinking if i actually want to have children gregory and i started talking about it it was not a biological necessity of mine that i said 'yes i need to have children'. it was a rational and even 'strategic' decision. how did you handle the challenge of being a mother while at the same time developing your own business? how did you organize yourself? would you say being an entrepreneur was even beneficial during that period?

it requires an incredible amount of commitment. other women give birth and take their six months maternity leave. i did not have any maternity leave. the day before i gave birth, i was in the office. and one week after having given birth, i was back at the office. and in between, while in hospital, i also occasionally sat at my computer. so realistically, you need to be someone who is able to give that level of commitment. that is a fact. however as an entrepreneur you are required to do so every day. all of us who started our own business needed to do so, there are no breaks.

however you know i did not feel as if i needed a break, i also did not want one. i was full of energy and i was highly motivated. i had a lot of freedom, i was able to work when the baby was sleeping and that worked pretty well. and that is the way in which we handled that situation. i worked a little less than usual but still managed to get a lot of things done then ben went to the children's nursery and i had more time to focus on work again so as you see, we managed well and i was very glad to be able to have the freedom to decide what to do but of course if you are a person who needs three to six months maternity leave

and who does not want to check the mailbox during that time then of course that does not work. however i did not feel that way, therefore it had no relevance for my decision. and with your second child, it was similar? in the sense that if it worked with the first it will work with the second? yes it was like 'do we want a second child?', 'yes we do want a second child, so let us do it'. and there were not any negative surprises with the second? i mean of the child is sleeping and you can work, you really are in a comfortable position.

there are many parents who are not that lucky. it was the same with both children? yes it was the same with both. i mean had we had a baby that cried and screamed all day long, i may have a different attitude towards it now and would have told you a different story, moreover if that had been the case there may not have been a second baby, but we were lucky it worked. how do you divide the work today? you are both working, you are both entrepreneurs, gregory is more involved in the strategic side of the business

while you are more involved in the business operations how do you manage to work the way and the amount you do and still find time for the children? as said we live in south africa and the children are in pre-school which means they spend five hours a day at school then we have someone supporting us who collects them from school and brings them home and at home we have a housekeeper, slash nanny, who looks after the kids and spends time with them. i believe we could not manage it without them. we travel a lot. i mean i am here sitting in zurich and my children are in cape town,

and despite that gregory still needs to be in the office. so we are lucky to have good care and support options, it works fine and my children like and trust the people i mentioned and the kids do not mind, it is not the case that they feel their parents are never around. because at the end of the day, i think we are around a lot more than other parents are. because we have that flexibility. we can bring the kids to school every morning i can leave the office at three in the afternoon if i want to, in order to be able to go and see how ben goes and collects his swimming trophy.

so i have the opportunity to spend a couple of hours here and there with my kids during the day and that is an opportunity that many other people do not have. i can structure and plan my working hours the way i want to so i can also work after they have gone to bed. nevertheless i do still travel a lot however i do not feel as if i have not got enough time with and for my kids. on the contrary i feel that because of the flexibility that we have, i can spend much more time with them while they are growing-up. and we try to take them with as a lot, so we try to integrate them into our daily business lives

our children know our entire team. we had a team-event last weekend and the kids joined us of course. they know that we have 'amazee', they know what 'amazee' is and they know the people who work at 'amazee'. and they are like part of the 'amazee'-family. can you tell us what a typical morning of yours looks like, when you get up? well today i got up at five however that is not really standard. usually i will get up at something like six. then i will have a shower and get ready for the day, have a cup of coffee

and by that time probably one or even both the children might be awake if i am lucky none of them will be awake yet. gregory always gets up very early so he usually gets up before me and then prepares breakfast so we spend the morning with kids, getting ready and having breakfast as well as getting ready for school and then we usually all leave the house together one of us will then go straight to the office and the other will bring the kids to school. so we will leave the house at around quarter to eight and then we are at the office at quarter past eight or half past eight.

then i spend time with my team, because i lead the operations team in cape town. so i really try to use the time and take a look at current projects with my team support the team as well as going through my routine daily tasks and i try to be more flexible during the afternoon. i try to leave the office early as often as i can because i want to spend time with the kids and i can always continue my work in the evening. however the mornings are very routine. where are the most of your customers whom you serve in cape town? are they mostly swiss customers or are they south african customers from in and around cape town?

it is about half-half. half of the customers are european and most of them from switzerland. and the other half is south african. it is nice to be able to find customers in south africa? would you say the relationship to south african customers is different to the relationship that you have with customers in switzerland? or would you say it is very similar? i would say it is indeed pretty similar. of course the people in south africa are different to swiss people however the way you build a relationship to a customer is similar.

i think everything is a bit more relaxed in south africa because the people are a little less focused on work than they are in zurich or here in switzerland in general. however we also have very good relationships with customers here so i would say it is pretty similar yes. earlier you said that you are a very happy person. which factors contribute to that happiness? or what are your secret ingredients for your happiness? i feel very privileged. i can live the way that i want and that alone is already reason enough for me to be happy.

because being able to do what i want to in life makes me a rare species. to do what you want in life, to make your own decisions, and make decisions that are not characterized by pressure or constraints instead they are characterized by freedom and dreams i am highly aware of how lucky i am to be in this situation. i mean we moved to south africa one and a half years ago because we wanted to. we succeeded in reaching a situtation in life that allows us to make such decisions. and i regard that as a great privilege and i consider us to be very lucky. and this also really influences during my decision making processes

what do i want to do in this one life that i have? i do not want to waste five years of my life with a bad decision i do not want to do things that i do not enjoy i do not want to be surrounded by people i do not like i want to do things that i enjoy, things that give me a good feeling and that benefits my surroundings. and at the end of the day these things must make me happy. we talked about many different things today is there anything still on your mind, some input, which you would still like to share?

i really would like to inspire a couple of people to go and try starting their own business. i think there is so much potential in every person. and i believe in that every person has his or her own strengths and abilities. i think it is very important that each and every one is aware of where his or her strengths lie and then every person should reflect whether or not they can start something on their own, based on these strengths. there are so many people who simplay wait for that great big idea that will change everything. however i think there are so many other ways to start an entrepreneurial process.

you can also sit down and think what could potentially earn you money. i do not think that people should wait for that idea, or for that big bang. and i think a lot of people are inhibited because they do not have that big idea. i talk to so many people who are in the situation that they just wait for that great idea to come along the idea which will make them an entrepreneur. however if they would begin something, if they would start off instead of waiting that would make them much more of an entrepreneur than the waiting does. and i think that that approach can lead to great entrepreneurs and especially happy ones too. and the more successful entrepreneurs we have

the more will follow. because we will have more role models and more paths visible that would allow people to make it i think we need to move away from placing role models on the podium. i think we need a lot more transparency instead. we need to transparently show the different ways which can lead to becoming a successful entrepreneur. it does not need to be a role model such as alan musk. alan musk is a great role model. when we talk about building a great business that changes the world. but we do not always need to go that far.

there are so many more modest approaches that are exactely as good. these other approaches are not right or wrong. and i think we need more role models from within the entire bandwidth and not just the ones that successfully started their own business and became millionaires. we need to show role models of people who chose an approach that worked for them personally. big or small, tech or in catering, it does not matter. i think it would be nice if we could open up a little in switzerland and not only always show and talk about the tech companies of course these companies are highly important and we also need more role models there too.

but how about the cook or caterer who started his own business and who started off by cooking dishes himself and delivering them to offices at lunchtime? i think it is important that we open our eyes, consider the entire bandwidth and therefore really outline all the potential options. i think that you surely also belong to the role models in switzerland when it comes to entrepreneurship. if someone would like to get in touch with you for an input or for a tip how can someone best get in touch with dania gerhardt? you can find my contact details everywhere. you can google me and you will find my email adress, dania@amazee-labs.com

or just visit our website and contact me through there. i am very open and therefore just write to me. and you are always happy when someone writes and asks for your advice? are there many people who contact you? yes there are many people who contact me however in very different contexts i usually am not too pleased when i receive surveys to various master thesis' concerning innovation and entrepreneurship. of course i know that is also important but it is something that usually just does not find place because i have a very packed life and i need to prioritize.

so yes i am happy when someone gets in touch with me and i realize that the person contacting me has a need and i can support him fulfilling that need. and those needs are usually more an entrepreneurial project rather than a master thesis? exactely. hence also i make a selection and decide to which emails i will answer and with some it might take a little longer till i get back as the topic of the enuqiry might not be particularly relevant. but at the end of the day, yes i am happy when i get such enquiries asking for my input however i would be lying if i would say that i am happy about each and every one, as my inbox fills up so quickly. but i am happy with enquiries which enable me to help that person or talk to that person and give them my input which will hopefully help them.

thank you very much, it was a very pleasurable conversation. you said it yourself, it is important to have role models and i think that you and your husband, as an entrepreneurial couple, which is also a rather rare species in that sense can also be regarded as role models for other swiss entrepreneurial couples and i sincerely hope that you will remain for a long time longer in the swiss entrepreneurial eco-system and that you always return home, no matter where you are. a big thank you. thank you, it was a lot of fun.